Talk:Niv-Mizzet

Planeswalker

Okay, who was the genius that suggested he is a planeswalker?

Just because he wasn't felt by the Firemind doesn't mean that he was away from the plane. He is indeed smart, so he could have just turned off the Firemind as opposed to disappearing.

Syphon 14:37, 7 May 2012 (EDT)

There's a new line here that says he never left Ravnica and says it's confirmed, but no actual reference. Can we get a confirmation on this one? 24.150.183.102 00:07, 2 June 2012 (EDT)

Age

Is Niv-Mizzet's age supposed to be AR? if it is A.C. what is that year system and how does it line up with AR—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 100.34.171.141 (talk • contribs).

I honestly could never wrap my head around mtg dating systems. He is one of the original Paruns and therefore more then 10000 years old. I have no idea how that lines up with AR or AC or whatever. - Yandere Sliver 22:56, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

A.C. is "Al Concordant" or "Before the Agreement" (before the original Guildpact), and Z.C. is "Zal Concordant" or "After the Agreement." You can find out more about how it lines up with AR at Timeline. --Nivmizzetreborn (talk) 23:01, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Story appearances

Should articles like "Ravnica High," written by Jennifer Clarke Wilkes, be included in the "Story appearances" sections on character pages? The author's preface indicates a "lighthearted glimpse" in which a sort of humorous analogy is made between the Ravnican guilds/hierarchies and upper-secondary education in the United States. While I enjoy and appreciate these types of articles, I would argue they should be referenced elsewhere or in a separate manner on the character pages, especially considering how character pages are structured regarding their canonical lore. Nivmizzetreborn (talk) 05:49, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

I would say it should be included for completeness' sake, but the title could be followed by "(non-canon)" or similar to clarify canonicity. RudleyDudley (talk) 21:18, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Phyrexian Invasion and Aftermath

Recent edits have questioned the wording regarding Niv-Mizzet’s participation in Ravnica’s defense against the New Phyrexian Invasion as well as the resulting aftermath. The information below overviews the primary source material as cited in the character page.

In "Collecting March of the Machine" by Max McCall and Adam Styborski, the following is stated about Multiverse Legends cards, "[y]ou'll find familiar faces from across the Multiverse fighting with—and against—the Phyrexians. Each Set and Draft Booster contains a Multiverse Legends card. These cards are not Standard legal, but each card is a reprint and can be played in the formats in which they are already legal, as well as in March of the Machine Sealed and Draft." The resulting card was Niv-Mizzet Reborn (Multiverse Legends).

In "March of the Machine Learning, Part 2", Mark Rosewater states, "[t]he final bonus sheet (i.e., Multiverse Legends) got closer to what we pitched, being all legendary creatures that participated in the Phyrexian war, complete with new art that shows them fighting." Niv-Mizzet's new art is within the new Ravnica cityscape frame and is focused on the decagon seared within his chest, representing his power as the Living Guildpact.

In “A Battle for the Ages”, Dave Humpherys says, "[t]he initial pitch, and what we stayed the course on, was that these would be depicting you, the denizens of the plane trying to liberate their plane from the Phyrexian invasion. The reverse face of the card would depict a pivotal character, creature type, or event to the resistance." The reverse face of Invasion of Ravnica is Guildpact Paragon which could only allude to Niv-Mizzet’s involvement since he is the living embodiment of the Guildpact itself.

In "Doing the Aftermath", Mark Rosewater states, "[w]e're wrapping up the Phyrexian storyline, and we wanted the opportunity to give you a last look at a bunch of characters and let you know what happened to them. Some die, some suffer dire consequences, some are coping, and a couple even have a (somewhat) happy ending. We needed to make some cards that showed you those story points." The resulting card is Niv-Mizzet, Supreme.

In the "WeeklyMTG - March of the Machine: The Aftermath (Video). YouTube.", Roy Graham states that Niv-Mizzet "is paying close attention…to the changes that are sweeping the Multivere in the aftermath of the invasion…[and] might be seizing some degree of emergency power in the immediate aftermath to make sure that Ravnica stays at least relatively stable." Consistent with Niv-Mizzet, Supreme as the Living Guildpact, only a “supreme authority” and/or “protector” could seize emergency powers over the plane to stabilize it.--Nivmizzetreborn (talk) 08:36, 20 July 2025 (UTC)

The first two sources indicate that NM fought in the war. We don't need art to tell us that he's the new Living Guildpact, we've got much more reliable sources from years earlier telling us that. As for the Guildpact Paragon, there's no further lore information on the card, and I'm not aware of any other source referencing the Paragon. The only thing that card tells us is that there is a robot associated with the Guildpact. It might be ancient tech that dates back to the original Guildpact! We do not have any information beyond its existence and association with the Guildpact; we do not know if NM created it, commissioned it, controls it, or is even aware of it.

As I said in Discord, "card names are required to be unique, and thus tend to acquire epithets and other poetry that aren't reflected in other sources." In particular with NM, whose other cards dub him "Visionary" and "Dracogenius", it seems equally as likely that this newest claim to being "Supreme" is simple puffery. There is no doubt that he is smart and powerful, but "supreme" is a very strong claim and I think it demands a much more reliable source than a card name.

For the final source, yes, he's certainly aware of and watching the Multiverse. The statement that he "might" be claiming emergency powers isn't quite as concrete as I'd like, but it's at least suggestive that it's happening. However, to exercise emergency powers (aka reserve powers, depending on your jurisdiction) requires only that the actor be something like a head of state, not the possessor of "supreme" power or authority. Corveroth (talk) 09:53, 20 July 2025 (UTC)

The Multiverse Legends version of Niv is not about telling us he's the new Living Guildpact, it is a companion to the articles that say cards that appeared in the MUL bonus sheet participated in the Phyrexian war. Referencing the MUL version of Niv after the articles further supports the statement that Niv fought in defense of Ravnica. March of the Machine heavily relied on the art and cards due to its massive scope and the inability of the stories to cover everything.

On the March of the Machine page under pairs, as well as the New Phyrexian Invasion page under Ravnica, statements referencing the Guildpact Paragon and the implication that it directly or indirectly involved Niv can be found. Some interpreted the Guildpact Paragon as a companion of sorts with Niv-Mizzet Reborn, especially considering the supporting articles that said MUL cards participated in the war. If others believe this interpretation goes too far, the adjustments can be made, but others have also had the same interpretation and the material has been up for some time now in multiple locations. Again, much of MOM and Aftermath relied heavily on the cards and artwork.

The final statement about Niv being the "supreme authority and protector" appears to align well with his Aftermath version as discussed in the video, but I have no concerns if the preference is to use wording closer to Roy Graham's exact comments.--Nivmizzetreborn (talk) 18:03, 20 July 2025 (UTC)

The simple existence of the card, with the context of the two articles, is sufficient to prove his participation. You described the art as if it had some relevance to the topics at hand. My response was to point out that the art does not contain anything new or useful; it is nothing more than inferior evidence of an already-established fact.

Thank you for pointing out the claims on the MOM and NPI pages. Those claims are working from the same sources as this article, so they should be amended in a manner consistent with this one when this discussion closes. Claims attributed to "some people" are illegitimate, but if you can find a reliable source arguing those points, simply ensure that those claims are properly attributed as the speculation or belief of their author.

I'm pulling out my own transcription from the video. Starts at the 20:00 mark for anyone else who wants it in context. Lightly edited to remove filler; emphasis in the final sentence is in the original.

"And then we see here Niv-Mizzet, who is paying close attention to the changes that are sweeping the Multiverse in the aftermath of the invasion."

"So it says Niv-Mizzet, Supreme; is this just a re-establishment of his status quo or is this a new status for Niv-Mizzet? Basically, has he changed or is this same old, powerful Niv-Mizzet?"

"He's still the Living Guildpact. He is just as much a important presence in Ravnica as ever. He might be seizing some degree of emergency power in the immediate aftermath to make sure that Ravnica stays at least relatively stable."

This response dodges a direct answer, but suggests that the only change in his capacities is the added emergency powers. Even with Ravnica's law magic, exceptions exist: the fact that the first Guildpact was unwound by a loophole, the exceptional extralegal zone utilized by the Obzedat, and the fact that just smashing a building was enough to dethrone Jace as the previous LG are all evidence that merely being the LG and having the capacity to speak magically-binding law into existence does not convey absolute power. The emergency powers presumably add to his already immense powers, but I still do not see that they should be described as "supreme". Corveroth (talk) 19:18, 20 July 2025 (UTC)

Please do not misconstrue my statements when referencing “some people,” especially when I endeavor to be accurate and provide citations as done here. I have only acknowledged that the Wiki is edited by numerous individuals, for whom I cannot speak, but who have included similar references on other articles. I appreciate your responses, and although our interpretations on the source material can differ, I have acknowledged my willingness to adjust the language and await any other responses accordingly.--Nivmizzetreborn (talk) 20:14, 20 July 2025 (UTC)

I did try to remove the following paragraph from the page:

Niv-Mizzet fought in defense of Ravnica during New Phyrexia's Invasion of the Multiverse,[30][31] wielding his powers as the Living Guildpact.[32][33] In the invasion’s destructive wake, the Firemind reaffirmed his position as Ravnica’s supreme authority and protector and became keenly interested in the changes that had swept through the multiverse.[34][35][36][37]

And changed the following part from the Ravnica page:

Bolstered by the power of the Guildpact through the Guildpact Paragons,[33][34][35] the guilds and their leaders also fought to defend Ravnica.[36] In the invasion’s destructive wake, Ravnica's balance of power saw a massive shift. Though the Firemind reaffirmed his position as Ravnica’s supreme authority and protector,[37][38][29] the Golgari were almost totally compleated, the Dimir are rumored to be gone, and distrust of the Simic and Izzet are at an all-time-high.[8]

to

In the invasion’s destructive wake, Ravnica's balance of power saw a massive shift. Niv-Mizzet seized some degree of emergency power[29], the Golgari were almost totally compleated, the Dimir are rumored to be gone, and distrust of the Simic and Izzet are at an all-time-high.[8]

My main concern is the use of original research (WP:NOR) in these paragraphs. I think it has been clearly established that there are several references that show Niv-Mizzet being active during the phyrexian invasion. However, writing something like "wielding his powers as the Living Guildpact", "reaffirmed his position as Ravnica’s supreme authority and protector", "Bolstered by the power of the Guildpact through the Guildpact Paragons" is nowhere mentioned in any of the sources or clearly shown on the cards. These kind of statements need specific sources or they are original research based on an extrapolation or subjective view of a card art. I believe using art should only use objective properties. Niv-Mizzet Reborn (Multiverse Legends) shows Niv-Mizzet being red with blue frills. He is standing and has a central glowing ring on his chest. However, the glowing ring is glowing in all of his cards even when seemingly doing nothing and thus does not seem to imply that he is actively wielding his powers as guildpact. While we know he fought during the invasion, he's not actively fighting any phyrexians on this art, thus we can't say anything new based on his card as a source. The same is true for other parts of the text. Something like "the guilds and their leaders also fought to defend Ravnica" implies that the guildleaders themselves have been part of the fighting. However, the source does not say anything like that. The source says "The rest of the guilds [other than Golgari] lead the defense, putting themselves on the frontline to bring down the invaders." Maybe Lavinia cowered in a hidden corner while the rest of the Azorius were on the frontline? We can't say one or the other based on this source alone. --Ilaro (talk) 10:14, 21 July 2025 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Just to chime in, I basically agree with how that paragraph reads now, avoiding supposition and cruft about how and why Niv was involved in the fighting, only that he was. Even the bit about "keeping a close eye on the multiverse" is questionable to attribute too strongly to Niv-Mizzet, since that part of the quote from the press event was really more about establishing OUR context for overall events. We have no idea how much Niv was actually aware of at what time; his "keeping an eye on things" could range from as little as "an onslaught of Phyrexians showed up so we fought them" to as much as "magi-scientific tracking of planeswalkers and omenpaths across the multiverse". So that really boils down to "when the Phyrexians invaded he fought them, he was aware of some kind of aftereffect of the invasion, and he considered using emergency powers to stabilize Ravnica." Phrases like "great interest" and "swept through the multiverse", frankly, are spicy-sounding bits one throws into a marketing event to make things sound exciting, but it just doesn't actually say anything without details of what he actually knew and did. You can't hear that and conclude "ah, so Niv knew that the entire multiverse was altered", it's too vague a quote to even go that far.

Anyway that section looks just fine as is now, it's just funny to see how little concrete is really said at these kind of events, so it's wise not to try to spin it into something it's not. - jerodast (talk) 06:36, 2 September 2025 (UTC)