Talk:Double team

Double team and perpetual?

I recently saw a LegenVD video (his HBG draft during the VIP access) where he stated that a perpetual bonus to a creature with Double team would NOT apply to the "duplicated" card created by Double team. Unfortunately he didn't actually play the cards that way so I didn't see it in action. Does anyone have a source for that interaction? Also curious if Double team would pick up any other "copiable values" - I believe its tooltip just says "duplicate" so not super indicative how that's defined.

Making a similar note on Talk:Conjure, Talk:Copy, and Talk:Perpetually. Note that Double team is really just a special case of Conjure.

Gettin flashbacks to working on the Hearthstone wiki and trying to compile reams of video of people "doing science" to see how the game mechanics work since there are no CRs. Ugh... - jerodast (talk) 02:48, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

I've done some investigating (i.e. drafted the Double Team deck with Liara of the Flaming Fist) and I can confirm that LegenVD is correct - perpetual effects are not applied to the duplicate created via Double Team. As a mechanic, Double Team is exactly like Conjure with an attack trigger.

I think the offender here is the word "duplicate" in the phrase "conjure a duplicate". To my Magic-brain, it is basically a synonym for "create a copy" but that's not how it things function.

Conjure is a creation mechanic, as opposed to a copy effect. So when Double Team triggers, it ignores all changes to the status of the base card triggering the effect (perpetual or otherwise). I believe Conjure in general works by scaning the card database for the correct card name and then adding that object to your hand or the battlefield. I don't think it's actually possible to Conjure a card with modified elements (e.g. color, creature type, power/toughness, etc). I think only the base card can be obtained and then the spell or ability can modify it after it's been added to the game. The good news here is that none of the negative perpetual effects stick to your conjured Double Team card. The bad news is that none of the positive perpetual effects stick either. This feels like an appropriate design choice for balance and to prevent feel bad moments with the Double Team mechanic.

Despite what the Arena tooltip says, I believe the correct wording for Double Team should be:

Whenever [this creature] attacks, conjure a card named [this creature] into your hand and it perpetually loses double team. Then [this creature] perpetually loses double team.

As soon as I run across a YouTube example I'll link it here as evidence and cross-post it on Talk:Conjure, Talk:Copy, and Talk:Perpetually.

- User:RivalRowan (talk) 07:26, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Appreciate the info and you being on the lookout for examples! Definitely no need to cross-post it on the other talk pages, I just wanted to have a note there for anyone who wasn't as obsessive as I am about all the related effects haha. Yeah, it's a shame they picked a word like "duplicate" for the tooltip when they already have the "a card named ABC" template as you proposed. - jerodast (talk) 12:54, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Video of a conjured duplicate not retaining perpetual effects from the player point of view: [1] (sequence starts at 1h 15m 34s). The sequence is a Kobold Warcaller being used to give a Tiefling Outcasts perpetual haste. The Outcasts are then immediately summoned and attack, triggering the Double Team. At 1h 15m 57s, Jim hovers over the newly conjured Tiefling Outcasts in his hand and it can clearly be seen that the card does not have the perpetual haste.

- User:RivalRowan (talk) 06:00, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

I found one myself a couple days ago from Kenji Egashira/NumotTheNummy, which I turned into a note+ref on this page, Perpetual, and Conjure. However in Kenji's instance it was his opponent who played it (also using Warcaller hah), so you have to wait for the opponent to play out the duplicate to confirm it. Nice to have another source. I don't have time to add it myself now but feel free to use a similar format to what I did, or I'll come back here and do it sometime later.

By the way I'll probably try to use Talk:Conjure as my central spot for updates on this since that's where all my questions about conjure (double team is a subset of conjure), perpetual, and copy effects come together.

Thanks for the video tip! - jerodast (talk) 16:31, 28 July 2022 (UTC)