Talk:Kaladesh/Card comparisons

Verdurous Gearhulk is not strictly better than Armament Corps

An article about this topic illustrates that Jackal Pup was much more successful than Savannah Lions. The reason for this is simply that Savannah Lions is not strictly superior Jackal Pup due to the color shift. While I agree that is easier to cast than , it is not superior in all circumstances. But it has to be to be called strictly superior. I am not arguing which card is better. I think Verdurous Gearhulk is the superior card, but it is not strictly better. - Yandere Sliver 16:11, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

I think there is obviously a need for a broader discussion on the definition of "strictly better" because as far as I knew "it dies to different cards" is not a factor we took into account in defining these things. *shrugs* By your definition, we have quite a few incorrect listing in Theros block because you basically assert that an ench/artifact creature can never be strictly better or even functionally equivalent to a normal creature (e.g. our listing of Hopeful Eidolon >> Trained Caracal, Brain Maggot = Mesmeric Fiend).

Note that the gearhulk, like the eidolon is also differentiated by its bigger effects (4 vs. 2 counters), so does that mean enchantment creatures that does the same as an enchantment cannot is automatically strictly worse (what else since it's not functionally equivalent?) since they will die to far more additional cards than gearhulk even does? Circeus (talk) 17:53, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

Well, I would say that an enchantment creature, an artifact creature and a simple creature are hard to compare. Simply by changing the type line determines if naturalize a valid counter play or not or if metalcraft can be switched on with it. We have Maro's word that subtypes are not considered for determine strictly superiority which might be of consideration in tribal decks. But the basic idea does not change: Whichever situation I am in, would swapping out the card result in only upsides and no downsides. Enchantments and Colored Artifacts would be already hard to compare and these can have the same effect printed on them.

Again I would agree that the cards you named are usually better then their respective counter parts, but not strictly better. The established relationships between card are "strictly better", "strictly worse", "functional reprint" and "color-shifted". Everything else does simply not to compare in these terms.

Take for example Springleaf Drum and Loam Dryad. Both cards have literally the same text printed on them, but strictly better or worse are concepts which simply don't apply here. - Yandere Sliver 19:23, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

If it came down to it, the dryad would be CLEARLY strictly worse. the drum can tap on the turn it's cast :P Circeus (talk) 01:00, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Does Scrapheap Scourger count as being strictly better than Despoiler of Souls?

It's not listed on this page, and it feels like it maybe should be...?

For reference:

Scrapheap Scourger - 2 - Artifact Creature - Construct - 3/2 - Scrapheap Scourger can't block. 1B, Exile another creature card from your graveyard: Return Scrapheap Scourger from your graveyard to the battlefield.

Despoiler of Souls - BB - Creature - Horror - 3/1 - Despoiler of Souls can't block. BB, Exile two other creature cards from your graveyard: Return Despoiler of Souls from your graveyard to the battlefield.

So, here's the differences:

• Costs (2) instead of (B)(B) to cast, so you can use mana of any type.
• Has an extra 1 toughness.
• Activated ability costs (1)(B) to activate instead of (B)(B), allowing for more flexible color commitment.
• Requires you to only exile one creature instead of two.

Am I missing something? --64.69.158.250 16:47, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

We had a discussion about this. the problem is that artifact creatures and creatures are very hard to compare. I would say in many situations the Scrapheap Scourger is better in most cases but not strictly better. - Yandere Sliver 19:24, 18 September 2016 (UTC)